A Quick Tip by CharlesAshbacher

Yes, I am serious. The other Arab leaders have for years wanted to remove Ghadafi from power. It was U. S. pressure that prevented the Egyptian army under Anwar Sadat from invading Libya and toppling Gahdafi. When he is gone the other Arab states will make money available for the rebuilding of the infrastructure. It is in the interests of the other Arab states that a stable regime exists in Libya and that there is no massacre of the population by the ruling class. That would be a terrible precedent for them as they battle through their own internal troubles. It is to their advantage to be seen as preventing a massacre by Ghadafi in Libya. Your lumping together of the insurgents in Iraq with the rebels in Libya is wrong on four levels. *) Mesopotamia has been the site of a highly advanced civilization for thousands of years while the people of North Africa only recently ceased being nomads. The two regions have vastly different native cultures and the settled Arabs have a history of being contemptuous of their nomadic brethren. *) The colonial power in Iraq was Britain while the colonial power in Libya was Italy. Both powers imprinted a vastly different culture on the people in those two areas. *) The insurgents in Iraq were responding to an invasion by a foreign power while the rebels in Libya are fighting against their own government. The borders of Libya were drawn by a colonial power and so do not represent ethnic, cultural or tribal borders in any way. Loyalties in the Arab world are still largely tribal and the native tribes of eastern and western Libya are very different.

Well, I wrote a long reply, but it somehow didn't save, so I'm not gonna rewrite all of it. I'll try to be brief.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with your take, and that's largely because your grasp of the territorial history is impressive, but it doesn't mean squat when you're dealing with the cold, stark, militant reality of these various tribes.  Of course, other leaders have wanted to see Gadfly removed, and that's largely b/c -- despite what any of us might say today -- Gadfly's done a fairly impressive job at keeping all of these tribal influences in order.  He's done what any totalitarian thug would do to keep these various peoples in order for the last two to three decades.  Yes, they'd want him removed, but they'd hardly want us going to all of the trouble that appears necessary for us to do it (especially by way of air strikes, as you've seen the immediate about face from most of these Arab leaders not more than 48 hours after the no-fly zone was enforced).

AS for the true heritage of these Libyan rebels, all you have to do is take a gander around the web at what any military strategist and/or political intelligentsia agents are telling you, and you'll see easily that the make-up of these "rebels" is precisely the folks that we've (the US) been facing in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.  If you want some links, then send me a message, and I'll be happy to do the heavy lifting for you.  I'm just saying that it's out there, in plenty of places, and it's very clear that this is quickly becoming "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" politics.  Why else would the US be so openly reticent (sp?) to jump into this quagmire?  You're telling me it b/c of Italian influences?  That's laughable.

Now, granted, when all is said and done, some of these various tribal influences may add more to the equation than they do now, but do you seriously believe that any regime or government put in place in Libya (of all places) is going to embrace either European or other Western nations?  Again, that's laughable.

Granted, I'm not a supporter of Obama, but I think he's played this as close to the vest as any good political card player can.  Did any of us seriously think that we weren't going to see the eastern influences (Russia and China, especially) decline and/or abstain from what's necessary?  Sadly, those nations are still far more interested in "upsetting the applecart" that is any decidedly Western influence, and this just plays largely into their hand.  Besides, Russia and China certainly don't have the alliances built around Arab states like the U.S. and much of Europe has done, so I'll cede the point that -- when all is said and done -- some of these tribal influences may end up factoring more INTO the equation than they currently do ... however, I stand by the fact that few of these tribes have any positive relationship to the Gadfly precisely because he's done everything a totalitarian thug could do to keep all of them in check.  Such is the nature of managing conflicts hundreds if not thousands of years old.

(I'm sure this isn't all of what I wrote, but I had no desire to rewrite it.  I think you get the gist anyhow.)